[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Short Term Show. The show about short term rentals and long term wealth with real property owners hosting real properties who are crushing it in the vacation and short term rental space.
And here's your host, Avery Carle.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hey y'. All. Welcome back to another episode of the Short Term Show. I've got a really cool guest today. We've got Courtney Petrovich. She is an Airbnb and short term rental designer, which I always love talking about design. It's so much fun. We talk about so many numbers on here that it's. I'm looking forward to talking about something else. So I'm, as always, your host, Avery Carl, and I'll go ahead and introduce Courtney. How's it going, Courtney?
[00:00:53] Speaker C: Hey, Avery. I'm doing well. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm excited to talk to you today and I am excited that we always get to talk about fun things on the design side too.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Yes. So much more fun. Nice change of pace.
[00:01:05] Speaker C: Yes. Although design is like so much more number based than people think when it is short term rentals or boutique hotels. Right. These investment assets. But we do get to also talk about super fun, fun things also.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Yes, yes. So will you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into the business?
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Yeah. So as you mentioned, I'm Courtney Petrovich. I'm the founder and principal of Danori Designs and short term rental design company. And we also have now branched into boutique hotels and resorts and designing different asset classes within hospitality.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Love that. So how did you get into that?
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I started as an investor actually in long term rentals. In 2016, bought my first long term rental and just grew that portfolio slowly near where I live. And in the early 2021, 2022, started researching short term rentals and was just really fascinated by the hospitality side of it. Just so different than a long term rental mentality. And so over the last few years I've sold off all of my long term rentals and I purchased my first short term rental in South Carolina and it was eight bedrooms and I live in Colorado and I was like, well, why can't I design this? And so designed that property from across the country and went out for install and just absolutely fell in love with it and decided that this is what I want to do for everyone to bring design to the world. So that's exactly how I got started.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Awesome. So where is your short term rental in South Carolina?
[00:02:46] Speaker C: It's in North Myrtle Beach. So we're about 30 to 40 minutes north of Myrtle. So we don't get the party scene. We get like families and golfers a little bit more low key.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, totally, totally. So how big is that property? How many bedrooms?
[00:03:02] Speaker C: It's eight bedrooms, seven baths. And so that first one that we bought is a duplex. So the other side has eight bedrooms, seven baths as well, but it's owned by someone else. And then this December, we actually purchased one a block away. And it's also eight bedroom, seven bath, same layout. So it's been really cool to replicate what we've done previously.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, like, how you. You got that and you designed it, and then you just said, I want to do this for everyone. So how did you go from just being a short term rental owner to getting clients?
[00:03:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I just set my mind that I wanted to help others just because it was such a fun process. I saw, not right away, but obviously over the first year of operating, I saw huge number differences. So we went from 120,000 before we purchased it as annual revenue to 254 gross annual revenue. So I was like, oh my gosh, we can make an impact for guests and investors. And just started kind of getting my name out there, looking through Facebook groups and someone posted in a Myrtle beach real estate investors Facebook group, hey, looking to redesign my condo. And so I just reached out to that person and he ended up being my first client. And he owns a management company and was able to refer me to other clients. And we've just built our reputation from there and really built the business around that reputation that we've built.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Awesome. So where is your favorite place to to design or where has been your favorite or your favorite property?
[00:04:40] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. It's so funny because I fall in love with like every property that we design. We always start with market research. And you know this so well, Avery, because you're across so many markets. You know how different markets demand different things from design, from amenity perspective, from what the guests are expecting. And so our first step in our process is to dive into that market, learn about it. Why are guests traveling there? What are the unique features? What's the flora and fauna? What's the geography of the area? And so as we go into that research, I just fall in love with every place we design.
One place that I think probably exemplifies that the most is the Wesley Hotel that we're working on right now in Page, Arizona. So it's about an hour and a half outside the Grand Canyon Horseshoe Bend is right down the street. Lake Powell is right down the street. And so I was fortunate enough to go out for inspection last September with the owners, and we hiked the land and went to the history centers and learned about the area. And so that's really being pulled forth into the design narrative of that property. Everything down from the materials that we select to the wallpaper, every single detail falls into the story that we created by being immersed in the landscape.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: I love that. So tell me about that hotel. How many rooms is it?
[00:06:03] Speaker C: So that's 50 keys. So we have 50 guest rooms and we have different room types, of course. Like there's double queens, single king, standard single king, luxe. So in, in hotels, it's not a unique design across all 50 keys. Right. It's these room types that are repeated throughout the property. And that helps from an operational standpoint, of course, with housekeepers understanding the layout, with keeping track of what needs to be replaced. And then it just makes sense aesthetically too, to have a repeat of six different room types spread across 50 rooms.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Okay, that's really cool.
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[00:07:43] Speaker B: so how did, how do you find a. A client like this who's like, how do you get your name out there as a designer to get clients like this?
[00:07:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, it's always been relationship building. And it's so interesting to watch so many short term rental operators who have been doing this a few years, expanding their portfol portfolio, and they're starting to get curious about boutique hotels. And so, you know, I've been fortunate with the short term rental design business to build relationships with a lot of short term rental owners who are now pivoting into hotels and saying, hey, you helped us with our short term rental. Do you think this is something you can take on? And we've been very fortunate. It's been a lot of learning lessons. It's a very different beast, designing a hotel than a short term rental. But little by little we're learning along the way and improving every single day.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: So what would you say if somebody is buying a short term rental and they're thinking of hiring a professional designer? What would you say are some things they should look for when they're out there searching?
[00:08:46] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. And to come back to numbers, which I know you talk about all the time here on the show, to come back to numbers, I would make sure that they understand how to do in depth market research, how to identify competitive competitors and look at, hey, where are those competitors doing really well and how do we want to emulate that and where are maybe the gaps where we could fill in and differentiate ourselves? So I'd start to ask them questions about their market research process, how they decide on a guest avatar, how they design around that guest avatar. I would also ask them about budget. That's obviously it needs to underwrite. We could all go spend 250,000 on design and it would look beautiful. But every dollar has to count. And so I would start to ask them about how they factor an ROI in their decisions as well. And the last thing I would say is just look at their portfolio of previous work. Does it resonate with you there are so many different design styles. Not a right or wrong answer. The numbers will help guide you, but find a design style that that designer really resonates with you.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. Look at their past work. Is it cool? Is it not cool? And I think that that understanding the ROI of every dollar is so important when it comes to designing a vacation rental because not every dollar spent equals a dollar in income or equals a dollar in appreciation. So you really want to make sure that you're only doing things that a increase the income, of course, but also that if you ever have to sell the property, you're able to get that money back out. And that can be a little bit of a slippery slope for sure.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's such a good point. And something that I think hotels do really well is think about long term asset value. And I think short rental owners especially, I know that's something that you're really good about getting out there. Avery, is like, hey, that long term asset value when you go to sell really matters as well as your revenue in the short term. So that's such a good point.
[00:10:45] Speaker B: Where do you find the most bang for your buck? To be in terms of what things to update or design in a property. Like, what are your most. The most important items that need to be updated or have like a true design to them on a property.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question. The first answer that I have is amenities. Right. If you're in a beach market, and I'm sure you see this all the time, if you don't have a pool, that's very hard to compete with someone who does have a pool. And it's not just, hey, is the pool sitting there and completely empty? It's, hey, is the pool there? Does it have lounge seating and a table and things for, for guests to see those photos and think, okay, we can sit around there and we can converse and to really get them dreaming and feeling emotionally sound to go ahead and book your property. So amenities and designing around those would be my first answer. And then my second answer is to have a really curated design esthetic that fits the market and hotel design. It's called creating a sense of place. Grounding people at, you know, if they're in 30A, they know when they're in your home at night closing the curtains, they still feel that sense of 30A. They're not like at the Marriott where they could be in anywhere in the world and not know. So that sense of place through a curated design aesthetic is really important.
And we do that with even simple things. Some people will come to us and say, hey, we don't have the budget to put in all new furnishings. But our listing isn't performing like it used to. And we can bring in a whole new design aesthetic with simple things like accent. Walls are a huge one. Whether it's wallpaper, even just the correct paint color.
And then soft furnishings like throw pillows, throw blankets, curtains and wall art, those are the least expensive things. If people are looking to make an impact but not have to spend a lot on all new furniture.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. That's. I love not having to like buy all new furniture, but, you know, buy I guess what you called soft furnishings. That's. That's a new term I'm going to use. And I like what you said about making sure that the design fits the aesthetic of the place that you are. So we had a listing not that long ago. It was a beach house listing and it was immersively Star wars themed.
Whoa. And that owner thought it was really super cool and that people, you know, people would be chomping at the bit and we're like, you know, we've been on Market seven or eight months now. And I don't think that the Star wars thing is as attractive to beach buyers as it might have been when you decided to do this. So I think that, you know, getting other people's opinions and maybe a good example of why you should hire a professional vacation rental designer is so that you don't make those types of mistakes. Like it had a wall with han solo, like 3D coming out of it.
Um, so it, it was super cool to them, but it did not translate over to the general public very well at all.
[00:13:47] Speaker C: Gosh. And that's definitely one of the biggest mistakes I see in short term rental design is people designing for their own personal preferences, which is awesome if it's your vacation home and you don't have to make money on it or you don't need to sell it. But when it is a true investment, you do have to put your personal preferences aside. And I know that's hard for some people, but just come back to that investment mindset.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, totally, totally. What you love may not be what everyone else loves. So you want it to be, you know, you want it to definitely appeal to, you know, if you're your guest avatar, if you're attracting families or bachelorette parties, etc. That's fine. But if you're getting too niche into your own preferences, then maybe, you know,
[00:14:28] Speaker C: take a step back 100%, especially if you're trying to sell a property.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: Yes.
So what would you say are some red flags when it comes to looking for an interior designer to do these kind of things? We talked about green flags like, hey, do you like their design? All that. But what are some red flags that people might not be aware of?
[00:14:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I would be careful about.
If they're telling you too low of a budget, that could be a red flag. We always say for a full design, consider at least 10,000 per bedroom. And, and that's extrapolated across the whole property. That's not like, hey, 10k in each bedroom and then we want another five to put into the living room and 10 in the game room, that's just an average rule of thumb across the property. If someone's saying, I can design your four bedroom property for $10,000, if it's a refresh where it's just soft furnishings like I just talked about, that might be more realistic, but as a full design, it's not. And what I would never want to see happen, and what we never do is come back and say to the client, halfway through, surprise, we actually need more money to execute on this. So I always tell clients we would so much rather have this number. And then you're super happy when we come back and we're under budget rather than having to come back a bunch of times and ask for a budget extension. So I would, I would check on that and then timeline would be the other one.
From the day we start. We also do full service install until the day you're ready for photos. It's a six to seven week process. And if anyone is saying it's a two week process, that's definitely a red flag. Like, hey, where are you sourcing your furnishings from? Or how are you making this happen in two weeks? So I think just having those initial concrete ideas of timeline and budget and understanding what's realistic is probably a good place to start. And if they're outside those, maybe a red flag.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. And what would you say is we talked about what's the best bang for your buck in terms of things to update. What would you say is the least, like the least return on investment, maybe of, of amenities or design things that you see people want to add that maybe don't really help that much?
[00:16:40] Speaker C: That's such a good question and no one has asked me that yet, so thank you for asking me that. You're making my wheels turn.
One thing that comes to mind is too many frivolous extras because I think of it that everything you put into your short term rental is either an asset or a liability.
And so if you have too many extras, you're increasing your liabilities to where it's likely going to get broken or need to be replaced. And that's going to be an ongoing treadmill for you. Especially with the two properties I own, we sleep 20 at one property and 24 at the other. And I learned the hard way, I was like, I want to have a Bluetooth speaker and I want to have binoculars and I want to have like telescope, all these crazy things. And it was awesome. But then the sixth time that I'm buying binoculars because they've gone missing, I'm like, okay, maybe that's more of a liability than to the property. So I think that's probably one of the ways to just be careful to find the right balance. Of course you want to have guests to have everything they need for a wonderful experience, but not so much that it's an operational nightmare. The other thing I would say is really overdoing it when you don't need to. If you can create a beautiful, immersive game room that's going to attract your guest avatar with paint colors and wall art.
Don't throw wallpaper up in that room. You know, save that for a bedroom where it's going to make more of an impact. So it's just kind of weighing out where am I putting these dollars and where should I stop? Because it's not going to be another dollar in revenue.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. So here's a question.
What do listeners need to know when they're hiring a designer? How do they be a good client to you? Because you never want to be the person that your vendors are. Like, they cringe when you call. And I'm a firm believer in you get more bees with honey. So even, you know, these, these kinds of relationships can get tense because there's a bunch of, you know, money going back and forth. Same thing with being a real estate agent. People are emotional. It's a lot of money that we turn into the worst version of ourselves, myself included, when we're doing a real estate deal. So what can they do to be a good client? So that when they call you, you're like, oh, yes, I can't wait to talk to this person and do such a great job for them.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: Oh, well, thank you for asking that. And you're so right. When people are shelling out large sums of money, they are not their best selves. And so it can be a challenge. But I would say, like I said earlier, to put their personal tastes aside. And we always deliver our design rationale and recommendations with data. And so if they could just look at those numbers and say, okay, this is why they're proposing that I spend $10,000 on this hot tub or whatever the case may be. And we also show them like, hey, as a result, this is how much more you're going to make every year. And so if they can keep their rational investor hat on, that helps us so much to deliver in the long term on their revenue. So that's the number one thing I would say, is keep the invest mindset. And if you're having a designer work on your personal home, you get to be as picky and personal as you want. But for your, your investment property, just keep your investor hat on, I would say, is the biggest thing that would help us.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Yeah, totally agree with that.
All right, so we're coming to, to the end of the show where we ask every guest the same three questions. But first, is there anything about short term rental design that you wish more people knew about or maybe mistakes that they make that you want them to avoid.
[00:20:24] Speaker C: I would say the biggest thing I hear and I so feel for people when they're in this mindset is that I'm so frustrated my property isn't earning so I'm going to wait to invest in design until it starts earning more money. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you're in the worst catch 22 in the world. And so I would, I would just say that to look at the numbers, look at the raw data. Here's my revenue now. Here's what this person is showing me. With comps, the revenue can be if we invest in design and to just keep the long term in mind rather than staying in that underperforming asset and continuing to lose money. It's like put a little bit in and then the long run, you're so much better off.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Great advice.
All right, so we are two of the last three questions of the show that we ask every single guest when they come on. It's a bit of like a lightning round.
So first question, what advice would you give 20 year old Courtney if you knew then what you know now?
[00:21:25] Speaker C: Oh my gosh. I would tell 20 year old Courtney to not be so risk averse. I was so conservative and smart and investing in my retirement plan, but if I had gotten into real estate earlier, I can't even imagine the exponential returns I would have, I would have had as a result. So that's the advice that I would give 20 year old Courtney.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah, don't we all wish we had done that earlier, myself included. All right, so number two, what advice would you give a new short term rental investor who's looking to get started today?
[00:21:58] Speaker C: I would tell them that the first part is the hardest part and you just have to have courage to get through that initial purchase when you're learning all these new terms in the short term rental world and to work with an expert like you, Avery, so that you, you know, you're supported because the beginning stages are so hard as your new investor and new host and newly furnishing your property and it's a lot of output and a lot of trust and faith. But once you get past that, it's actually so such a fun industry, so rewarding to be a host. I mean sometimes there's trouble guests, don't get me wrong. But in the long run it's, it's such a fun industry to be a part of. So I would say get through that first part with people who you know are going to help you and then enjoy the returns from there.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Great advice. And last, what's your favorite book that's impacted your mindset?
[00:22:49] Speaker C: Ooh, that's impacted my mindset specifically.
I love the book and I've, I've said I tell this to everyone. I love the book the Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter and his argument. It's a very well written book with a threaded storyline and I appreciate good writing. So if you like good writing, it's just good from that standpoint. But he also talks about how comfort and how we've programmed it into our lives and how that really is detrimental to us in the long term, not trying new, hard, challenging things and continually growing. And it really gives actionable advice on how to get out of that and how to intentionally expose yourself to comfort.
Let me start that again. How to intentionally expose yourself to discomfort to grow as a result. And I think it really, even though it's not directly related to short term rentals or towards short term rental owners, I think it really applies to our industry.
Yes.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Definitely. Have to get out of your comfort zone if you want to be successful.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: A hundred percent.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Awesome. So, Courtney, thank you so much for coming on. If our listeners want to find your company, follow you, hire you. How do they do that?
[00:24:02] Speaker C: Well, we are Denori Designs. That's D E N O R I. And you can find us Dennori Designs on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and then our website is dennoridesigns.com so we're pretty easy to find out there.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: All right. Pretty straightforward. Well, thank you so much again, Courtney, for coming on and listeners. We will see you next week.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Thanks so much. Avery,
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Sam,
